If someone asks you for the truth...do you give it?

[Camille]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WTF @ Mar 29 2009, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think the lesson learned is that when a person we do not care for lies we call him a liar. When a person we like lies we call them......what do we call them? LOL[/b]

Hmmmm....I think it&#39;s a tad different to that WTF.
I think it&#39;s more about whether the lie makes them appear to be a bully or a coward that shapes our thoughts of them.

Quick story that I did say I would mention earlier in the thread:

I moved to the US because I met someone.
We had met several times (on his turf) before I moved here.
He met my family also. We had been invited to his home, work etc...no signs of him trying to "cover his tracks in any way."
6 weeks after my arrival, I discover that he has a GF of 20 years!!!!
Obviously, in my shock, anger and deep hurt I asked him why he hadnt told me.
He had selfishly (and wrongly) looked at the small picture of how telling me before moving here would affect our relationship.
I&#39;m looking at the bigger picture of "How the hell did you think you were going to help me build a life here (as promised) when you have both a full time career AND a full time GF?" Of course he denied it and it wasn&#39;t until I pointed out that said woman had been stalking me that I realized she must be connected to him and he needed to come clean. Such drama and bullshit...all deriving from a lie!

So the point is, that a lie affects so much more than you might initially think.
Usually when someone is telling a lie they are looking at a much smaller picture than the one being deceived looks at.

You are right though, we all lie, but lying when confronted (as he did) is insulting and well...lots of other things that I can&#39;t put into words right now
I would have had a lot more respect for him had he come clean...and yes, I might have still moved here.
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus though my male friends (in the UK) tell me my thought process is much more Mars than Venus which they say confuses men who are programmed to read between the lines and try and figure women out. :blink: <----I love that face lol.

Happy Sunday all!!!!!!!!

[atlcomedy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camille @ Mar 29 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Hmmmm....I think it&#39;s a tad different to that WTF.
I think it&#39;s more about whether the lie makes them appear to be a bully or a coward that shapes our thoughts of them.

Quick story that I did say I would mention earlier in the thread:

I moved to the US because I met someone.
We had met several times (on his turf) before I moved here.
He met my family also. We had been invited to his home, work etc...no signs of him trying to "cover his tracks in any way."
6 weeks after my arrival, I discover that he has a GF of 20 years!!!!
Obviously, in my shock, anger and deep hurt I asked him why he hadnt told me.
He had selfishly (and wrongly) looked at the small picture of how telling me before moving here would affect our relationship.
I&#39;m looking at the bigger picture of "How the hell did you think you were going to help me build a life here (as promised) when you have both a full time career AND a full time GF?" Of course he denied it and it wasn&#39;t until I pointed out that said woman had been stalking me that I realized she must be connected to him and he needed to come clean. Such drama and bullshit...all deriving from a lie!

So the point is, that a lie affects so much more than you might initially think.
Usually when someone is telling a lie they are looking at a much smaller picture than the one being deceived looks at.

You are right though, we all lie, but lying when confronted (as he did) is insulting and well...lots of other things that I can&#39;t put into words right now
I would have had a lot more respect for him had he come clean...and yes, I might have still moved here.
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus though my male friends (in the UK) tell me my thought process is much more Mars than Venus which they say confuses men who are programmed to read between the lines and try and figure women out. :blink: <----I love that face lol.

Happy Sunday all!!!!!!!![/b]

Camille, that is a sad story. Years ago I would have said "how could you be so naive!" :angry: now I&#39;ve found that people of both genders often just don&#39;t ask the right questions or believe what they want to want to believe even if all of the "clues" are right in front of them when it comes to matters of the heart.

[Camille]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (atlcomedy @ Mar 29 2009, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Camille, that is a sad story. Years ago I would have said "how could you be so naive!" :angry: now I&#39;ve found that people of both genders often just don&#39;t ask the right questions or believe what they want to want to believe even if all of the "clues" are right in front of them when it comes to matters of the heart.[/b]

ATL what makes you think that I was so naive and that he wasn&#39;t just a damn good liar?
I believe I did ask the right questions.
Even looking back now, I really do.
I guess the fact that things began to stop "stacking up" is why it all came to an abrupt halt within the grand total of...oh..about 5 weeks.
The sad thing is, his friends and work colleagues all knew about her..and about me.
When I ran into one of the much later they said they felt awkward about it, but they were willing to keep quiet as they felt I was a better match for him than the other woman. Huh? How is that helpful? I dunno...it&#39;s a lie that spread quickly and like wildfire. Anyway...it&#39;s a longgggggg time ago.
The point was that what appeared (to him) to be a simple lie, ended up being something that got him in a whole load of shit both legally and personally.
I think some people just get off on compliactions and drama though.

WTF...Boy George was never my fave. My best friend at the time thought he was amazing...but we were only whipper snappers back then.
Of all his songs I really dislike Karma Chameleon. What the heck radio station are you listening to that you hear this song these days? I haven&#39;t heard it played in...well...years!!!!!!!!!
I was more a Duran Duran fan :P
"Notorious" stands out in my mind as being a very powerful song in that day and age...loved it!!!!!

C xxx

[atlcomedy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camille @ Mar 29 2009, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

.
The sad thing is, his friends and work colleagues all knew about her..and about me.[/b]

not sad....sounds like he&#39;s got some great friends....

[Camille]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (atlcomedy @ Mar 29 2009, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

not sad....sounds like he&#39;s got some great friends....[/b]

ATL, he left my contact info lying around intentionally for her to find.
He was too much of a coward to just tell her about me....which is how she was able to stalk me.
His friends weren&#39;t so "friendly" after that...and no, I didn&#39;t tell them what happened. The police did.
I could have taken legal action but it wasn&#39;t worth it to me.
They may have been friends to him, but in the end he was even lying to them and it cost him most of his friends.
People will stand by their friends, but very few will stand by someone who has unecessarily dragged them into a legal situation.
Like I said, a single lie can snowball way out of control and have dire consequences.
I&#39;m done with this story of mine now...it was just an example of when to fess up. ;)

[Sysiphus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camille @ Mar 29 2009, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Quick story that I did say I would mention earlier in the thread:

I moved to the US because I met someone.
We had met several times (on his turf) before I moved here.
He met my family also. We had been invited to his home, work etc...no signs of him trying to "cover his tracks in any way."
6 weeks after my arrival, I discover that he has a GF of 20 years!!!!
Obviously, in my shock, anger and deep hurt I asked him why he hadnt told me.
He had selfishly (and wrongly) looked at the small picture of how telling me before moving here would affect our relationship.
I&#39;m looking at the bigger picture of "How the hell did you think you were going to help me build a life here (as promised) when you have both a full time career AND a full time GF?" Of course he denied it and it wasn&#39;t until I pointed out that said woman had been stalking me that I realized she must be connected to him and he needed to come clean. Such drama and bullshit...all deriving from a lie!

So the point is, that a lie affects so much more than you might initially think.[/b]

Yikes! As the one who poked you in the eye to tell the story in the first place... I suppose I should say something...

In short, your "friend&#39;s" behavior was despicable. As bad as it is to "lie" to get someone interested in you, it is exponentially worse to get someone to rearrange their whole life around the relationship in furtherance of the lie.

If it makes you feel any better, you&#39;re not alone. A good "friend" of mine (read, my high-school/early-college sweetheart... first "serious" relationship I ever was in) was the victim of a similar scam after we had gone our separate ways... and scam is the only word for it. Only in her case, the "man" (and I use that term quite loosely) in question was married. She quit her job, moved halfway around the country to be with the guy, and was MORE than ready to marry the guy before she found out the truth. She was a beautiful woman & a lovely soul who was left an absolute wreck for the experience. Took her the better part of a decade to recover & get her life back on track.

It had NOTHING to do with me... but I always felt a little guilty in that - if we had found some way to make our relationship work - that might never have happened to her. Now is that stupid & egotistical on my part? Sure...

About the only other thing I can do is apply a little symbolic logic:

All cowards are liars
NOT all liars are cowards
Ergo....

[Camille]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sisyphus @ Mar 30 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Yikes! As the one who poked you in the eye to tell the story in the first place... I suppose I should say something...

In short, your "friend&#39;s" behavior was despicable. As bad as it is to "lie" to get someone interested in you, it is exponentially worse to get someone to rearrange their whole life around the relationship in furtherance of the lie.

If it makes you feel any better, you&#39;re not alone. A good "friend" of mine (read, my high-school/early-college sweetheart... first "serious" relationship I ever was in) was the victim of a similar scam after we had gone our separate ways... and scam is the only word for it. Only in her case, the "man" (and I use that term quite loosely) in question was married. She quit her job, moved halfway around the country to be with the guy, and was MORE than ready to marry the guy before she found out the truth. She was a beautiful woman & a lovely soul who was left an absolute wreck for the experience. Took her the better part of a decade to recover & get her life back on track.

It had NOTHING to do with me... but I always felt a little guilty in that - if we had found some way to make our relationship work - that might never have happened to her. Now is that stupid & egotistical on my part? Sure...

About the only other thing I can do is apply a little symbolic logic:

All cowards are liars
NOT all liars are cowards
Ergo....[/b]

I&#39;m so sorry that happened to your friend.
I understand the devastation because simply put, it destroys your faith in basic humanity.
It takes the love of a great family and some fantastic friends (and of course time) to get through hurt like that.
It&#39;s funny, I was a bit touchy when ATL questioned whether I was naive earlier...because I dont really consider myself as such...but what I do think looking back is that I would NEVER have treated anyone so atrociously and in such a detached manner so I genuinely did not occur to me that anyone else would do this either...especially to someone they cared about.
As for obvious warning signs, there were no limitations on where we could go or when or where and when I could call him. There were no signs of her in his home. I think the most integrity I have ever shown was when a few days after the shit hit the fan he came to me and said he had ended things with her and wanted to be with me. I was horrified. I told him that if he could just drop someone that he had been seeing for 20 years just like that without a second look back he was not someone I wanted to be with. Bear in mind that I owed her nothing at the time because she had not only stalked me, she had told him that I had stalked her which was completely untrue. I was also alone and very new to the country so it would have been very easy to go back to him even if just for a while. I&#39;m so glad I didnt and I came to find out later that I was not the first person this happened to...they have hurt many women over a long period of time playing games with one another.
I think the most shocking thing of all (for me) is that he is in his late 40&#39;s and she is in her 50&#39;s.
I still wonder how people get to that age and behave that way.

Wow, I was done with this thread but I felt so badly for your friend Sis.
Manipulation is a form of bullying. Inside every bully is a coward. I feel for her. I bet the said man didnt struggle getting his life back on track for as long as your friend did....very very sad :(

[Sysiphus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camille @ Mar 30 2009, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I&#39;m so sorry that happened to your friend.
I understand the devastation because simply put, it destroys your faith in basic humanity.[/b]

Truth be told... it was probably wrong of me to put her business in the street like I just did but I thought you&#39;d understand. That&#39;s why I said it.

Once upon a time... she was one of the most lovely & vivacious human beings I&#39;ve ever meet. Drop dead beautiful. Athletic, smart, confident. A man could absolutely lose himself in her eyes. When I saw her afterward, the experience just completely took the light out of her her eyes. Like running into someone who had become a drug addict. I don&#39;t think I needed it but the expereince was a devastating - yet effective!! - reminder never to play games with the feelings & lives of others.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camille @ Mar 30 2009, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Wow, I was done with this thread but I felt so badly for your friend Sis.
Manipulation is a form of bullying. Inside every bully is a coward. I feel for her. I bet the said man didnt struggle getting his life back on track for as long as your friend did....very very sad :([/b]

Sorry! Nothing worse than kicking the dead horse when the rider has moved on. I don&#39;t disagree. A VERY GOOD friend has put me in mind of my father recently. He used to say,

"For every 10 guys that SAY, &#39;I&#39;m gonna kick your ass!&#39;
One guy actually has the nerve to try
For every 10 guys that have the nerve to try
One guy actually has the talent to do so."

Now, his point was that you really didn&#39;t have much to be afraid of in a confrontation. But,

In light of what you just said, my take on it is that I&#39;m not afraid of ANYONE who has to TELL me what he&#39;s gonna do to me...

[Rudyard K]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sisyphus @ Mar 30 2009, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

A VERY GOOD friend has put me in mind of my father recently. He used to say,

"For every 10 guys that SAY, &#39;I&#39;m gonna kick your ass!&#39;
One guy actually has the nerve to try
For every 10 guys that have the nerve to try
One guy actually has the talent to do so."

Now, his point was that you really didn&#39;t have much to be afraid of in a confrontation. But,

In light of what you just said, my take on it is that I&#39;m not afraid of ANYONE who has to TELL me what he&#39;s gonna do to me...[/b]

Interesting. I agree with what your Pop proffered.

When I was a kid growing up it seems like we fought a lot more than my kids did growing up. When my boys were in high school I&#39;d hear them say they were going to whup somebody&#39;s ass about something. I used to ask them, "Have you ever really been in a fight? I mean a real fight...fist-t-cuffs...swinging to take their head off fight?" They would look at me and say "no". I&#39;d tell &#39;em that they need to get in a couple. Then they would learn that even if you win a fight, you very seldom come out of it unscathed. And they are no fun. And the thrill of victory is not near as great as the pain of nursing those wounds. There, of course, is a time to fight. But when it is upon you, you don&#39;t need to talk about it...you walk right up to them and smack them in the nose...and then get ready.

I don&#39;t know if they took what I said to heart...but they didn&#39;t really get into many fights...if any.

[Sysiphus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rudyard K @ Mar 31 2009, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Interesting. I agree with what your Pop proffered.

When I was a kid growing up it seems like we fought a lot more than my kids did growing up. When my boys were in high school I&#39;d hear them say they were going to whup somebody&#39;s ass about something. I used to ask them, "Have you ever really been in a fight? I mean a real fight...fist-t-cuffs...swinging to take their head off fight?" They would look at me and say "no". I&#39;d tell &#39;em that they need to get in a couple. Then they would learn that even if you win a fight, you very seldom come out of it unscathed. And they are no fun. And the thrill of victory is not near as great as the pain of nursing those wounds. There, of course, is a time to fight. But when it is upon you, you don&#39;t need to talk about it...you walk right up to them and smack them in the nose...and then get ready.

I don&#39;t know if they took what I said to heart...but they didn&#39;t really get into many fights...if any.[/b]

It&#39;s a different world, RK, then when we were coming up. Back in the day, you duked it out & that was pretty much the end of it. It wasn&#39;t unusual for those you threw down with to end up becoming your best friends... probably because you knew from jump exactly how far you could push each other before it got ugly.

Our kids are growing up in a world where damn near everybody they run into is strapped.

I&#39;ve had to add that as a corollary to Pop&#39;s rules. As in,

"FIRST, figure out if the guy running his mouth is packing. If he is... take the loss. A good run is better than a bad stand any day!! If not, THEN.... for every 10 guys...."

[Rudyard K]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sisyphus @ Apr 3 2009, 12:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It&#39;s a different world, RK, then when we were coming up. Back in the day, you duked it out & that was pretty much the end of it. It wasn&#39;t unusual for those you threw down with to end up becoming your best friends... probably because you knew from jump exactly how far you could push each other before it got ugly.[/b]

Agreed. Back in the day you seldom really worried about dying. I had to laugh about becoming friends with the oppenent...true enough. I had this one fight with this guy when I was 13 or 14. We were duking it out in the parking lot of the school. The coach caught us and took us in the gym. Made us each put on 16 oz gloves and continue duking it out.

Try boxing with 16 oz gloves. If you could last a 3 minute round at that age you were better than I. In just a couple of minutes, neither one of us cared about what we had been fighting about. We just wanted to get those gloves off and get out of that gym. He made us continue fighting for about 15 minutes to seal that thought in our heads.

We did become best buds after that...lol.